Flow management through reeds

Forum for general 2Stroke technical chat. Port design, pipe design, ignition control...
oldjohnno
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Flow management through reeds

Post by oldjohnno »

OzzyElsie wrote:Hey Johno, I've been reading ya blog - love ya work, you sound a bit like of a Burt Munro of 2T's :Clap: . You must have an awesome garage or a indulging boss 8) .

Your work with the reed blocks is interesting. I have work with mine to a minor degree - checking, opening up slightly etc - but never worked on the 'lead in' of those rubbery bits. I've looked at them pondering but never done anything - there always been easier and proven issues like bigger carbs to play with. But, thinking, thinking, thinking .......it might be worth of a fiddle.
(continued from the intro section)

Basically I like to think of the intake tract as being two distinct parts - the first is everything upstream of reed petals ie. the airbox, carb and the ducting between carb and reed cage and the cage itself. The second part is everything downstream of the reed seats.

The reason for this thinking is this: you can do pretty much whatever you like to improve flow in the first part without having to worry about side effects too much. But the second part is part of the crankcase volume, so you have to keep in mind that any changes you make downstream may also alter the primary comp. ratio. It's entirely possible that any flow improvements you make in this part may be negated by unintended changes to the PCR.

With this in mind it's probably prudent to consider what changes if any you'd like to make to the PCR before hacking into the barrel downstream of the reed. A grossly simplified view of PCR might have it that for a muffled engine or one with a fairly sharply tapered, wide-rpm-range pipe a high (1.5:1 or perhaps even higher) PCR will work well. On the other hand an engine that can be kept within a narrow rpm range and that has a very effective pipe can make good use of a low (say 1.2 - 1.3:1) PCR. These engines let the pipe do the pumping work and avoid the pumping losses of high ratios. But that's another topic.

One of the things you learn from flowbench work (apart from the fact that everything you thought you knew about flow dynamics is wrong...) is that there is much, much more to be gained from spending time on the downstream side of any reduction in cross-sectional area than there is on the upstream or entry side. This is pretty much the opposite of what a lot of people do, but if you spend your time on keeping the flow attached and avoiding turbulence you'll pick up a lot more flow than what you'll get dicking around with the entry side. You can speed up airflow fairly abruptly but it needs to be slowed down very carefully or else the resulting turbulence kills flow.

In practice this means making any increase in cross sectional area as gradual as practical and making sure any diverging runner walls aren't angled out any more than about 5 - 8 degrees. It also doesn't hurt to fill any dead areas that would tend to encourage eddies to form and disrupt flow. The plastic stuffers that the OEMS use do this but you can take the idea further and gain flow.

The area downstream of the reed I think is not so important - there's already a lot of turbulence here due to the crankcase activity. The possible exception might be guys like me that play with old clunkers that never had reeds originally. These old things usually end up with an appreciable length of duct between the reed outlet and the mouth of the crankcase so I think it's possible that trying to manage the area progression here as well may help a little. But as mentioned before all this has an effect on PCR - ideally any mods would not only improve breathing but also shift the PCR number in the desired direction.

Improvements to the flow path into the reed can increase power enough that you can feel it and measure it, and the improved carb signal or "pop" is something you can hear and see in the jetting requirements. It won't give the sort of gains that you can get from pipework but I still think it's worthwhile.
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by 2TInstitute »

High case comp only works on old engines with 2 transfers , 4 or more lower case comp works better. When the engine breathes better the pipe can do the work, the more volume in the case the more the pipe has to draw on. Lowest is 1.28:1 on an RSA Aprilia.

Recently lowered the CCR on a race bike that made 3-4 more in the mid range and with a different pipe should make 3-4hp more at peak.

The stuffer and petal design is where the power is at with a reed. "Flow" (grrrr I hate that word :evil: ) occurs simply because of a pressure drop at another point, the greater the pressure drop the greater the "flow". When the intake charge hits a reed without or a poorly designed stuffer(I used to throw them away too :D ) it allows the charge to hit the petal along it's length not at the tip. The reed bends easiest furthest away from the pivot point. To do that you need more tip area (what V force did) or a better stuffer that only allows charge to hit the petal tip(Boyensen RAD valve). Combinations of stops, reed material/thickness backing reeds is endless.

Also a common misconception is intake charge goes from carby, through the reeds,into the cases, up through the transfers into the cylinder in one cycle. People that still think this will starting talking about "visualising flow" and other buzzwords. In reality it take 15-20 cycles for a air/fuel molecule to go through the engine.
oldjohnno
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by oldjohnno »

2TInstitute wrote:
Recently lowered the CCR on a race bike that made 3-4 more in the mid range and with a different pipe should make 3-4hp more at peak.

Also a common misconception is intake charge goes from carby, through the reeds,into the cases, up through the transfers into the cylinder in one cycle. People that still think this will starting talking about "visualising flow" and other buzzwords. In reality it take 15-20 cycles for a air/fuel molecule to go through the engine.
What CCR are you running now? In theory at least, an engine with sufficient transfer area and an effective pipe should be able to run with no crankcase compression at all - never mind the slight inconvenience of not being able to start the thing... :(

SAE paper 970361 - CFD Prediction of Crankcase Flow Regimes in a Crankcase Scavenged Two-Stroke Engine - gives some fascinating insights into what really happens downstairs. As you say, it's nowhere near as neat and orderly as many imagine.
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by 2TInstitute »

CCR depends on the engine and intended use.

Why on earth would a two stroke need crankcase compression you only need crankcase ............decompression/vaccum/pressure drop by a rising piston. With a large volume it's harder to alter the pressure by any great amount.
James W.
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by James W. »

Check out this Kiwi site, they build a 2T cylinder with replaceable modules
for quick-change transfer-flow characteristics.. iffitech.com/project/p2-cylinder/

( Sorry, dunno why it wont link, but its worth a Google)..
James W.
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by James W. »

Funnily enough, & from nearly 60 years ago, on P. 39 of 'Automotive Year 1957'..

The sophistications of 2T flow-dynamics are discussed, including the Kadenacy Effect,
& the newly described use of the expansion chamber, as utilized by German engineers,
- based on ex-Nazi V1 pulse jet characteristics research..

Essentially remarking that the hi-po 2T mill is basically a method..
.. for harnessing shaft power - from resonant jet thrust..
ged
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by ged »

Wow, 1957.... I always thought that stuff was still Top Secret in '57. "KadencyEffect" with a K. haha.

Walter Kaaden was still working in a little shed out the back of MZ at that stage. They hadn't even been to the TT until '58 so writing that in '57 was pretty forward looking stuff.

Kaaden's role in development of the 2 stroke was pretty widely recognised, but I had no idea that he had worked on the V2 rocket until I read Matt Oxley's "Stealing Speed" last year. Its a great read (for about 10 bux or so on Kindle). The other thing that I hadn't realised was that the rest of the team Kaaden worked with on the V2, were all rounded up by the Russians and the US and put to work launching their space programs. Walter was actually invited to the US to work at NASA, but elected to stay with his bikes in the little tin shed in Zschopau. What a guy.
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by BRG1200 »

Additional recommendation for Stealing Speed - good references to Suzuki and the racing scene of the day. Ernst Degner also an interesting story.
Ex UK, now in Adelaide. LC250/350. DT175. Shed full of sh1t in the vague form of dismantled rusty RD’s and RZ’s.
James W.
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by James W. »

Poor ol' Degner didn't have much luck..

I recently read his Kiwi Suzuki team mate Hugh Anderson's memoir,
Anderson won world titles while Degner crashed too hard & too often.

Mind you, those razor-thin powerband `60s GP 2T's needed a fair bit of rider finesse.

Even Ando called it quits when the Suzuki reliability vanished, & nothing but the danger remained.

The flow progress which allowed the (final, sadly) GP 125s to make more power from a single, yet have
it more reliable/tractable with a mere 6-speed box,
- than those `60s V4s with their like,14-speed boxes, is remarkable.
2TInstitute
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by 2TInstitute »

A Dutch guy was collating stories from behind the Iron Curtain. In East Germany for the average bloke, and apparently if you were a decent rider was all good be it road race mx or ISDE. You could skive off all day at your "job" and work on your bike, and use whatever skills you could source in factories or machine shops all for nix. However it all was brought crashing down when you had to travel to a meeting most racers had a van 3 cyl two stroke, which used to wear the cranks badly when you gave them a hiding. You could not buy a new crank so one had to go missing from the factory, but not just 1 that would be noticed, you had to lift a whole pallet of 100 cranks. As the fellow said can you imagine being in the dead of night in a van with 750kgs of cranks in the back trying to make a swift and stealthy get away in a clapped out rattly 3 cyl 1200cc van with 2 blokes in the front. To make matters worse there was 2 vans. Apparently there was a divvy up of the cranks and clapped out vans were coming from near and far
ged
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by ged »

Hahaha

I spent about 14 hours stuck in the transit lounge at Moscow airport in about 1985. I'm pretty sure that we cant even begin to imagine what it might have been like to live through that era.....

Image
James W.
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by James W. »

Ironically, given the thread topic..
..both the MZ & Aprilia - the most powerful specific output 2T G.P. bike ( ~440hp/ltr)..
- used disc, not reed valve intakes.


But if we don't mind a wee bit of topic straying for technical interest's sake..


Such as for another design approach to flow management.. sleeve valves..
.. check out this animation of a - still radical - 80 y/o design.
The Napier Sabre, a 36ltr aero-mill, rated as good for 3,500hp @ 3,850rpm on 20lbs boost for take-off.

http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/c ... o-pasquale
BRG1200
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by BRG1200 »

Jeepers, 15 or 20 cycles to get mixture up the transfers? Really? WTF is hsppening down there in that time perod?
No wonder there used to be talk of direct injection.
(Here's where I'm told I've completely missed the point...!)
Ex UK, now in Adelaide. LC250/350. DT175. Shed full of sh1t in the vague form of dismantled rusty RD’s and RZ’s.
James W.
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by James W. »

Here's a NACA research report on sleeve port flow coefficients..

http://www.naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk ... rt-717.pdf
oldjohnno
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Re: Flow management through reeds

Post by oldjohnno »

BRG1200 wrote:Jeepers, 15 or 20 cycles to get mixture up the transfers? Really?
No. You can build a fresh engine without a drop of fuel in it, bolt on the carb, kick it twice and it's running. The cylinder has enough mixture in it to fire and run after 3 or 4 revolutions.
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