Tricking up an RZ250

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petegailey
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Tricking up an RZ250

Post by petegailey »

I have a very original RZ250RR import that is running reasonably well especially now its mid winter. I had a great 200k run on it Saturday and just purred, the annoying stutter between 4000-5000 was negligible,the new tyres handled both the old road and the freeway really well and was just so sweet.

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Recently Ive bin quizzing a very patent Jon about the 421 option and it makes a lot of sense but after watching some of the you tube clips i do have some concerns about if the 421 is too hot for the bike and more so for the rider. I do like the idea of the kit though and is still under consideration.

The 350 option could be better power wise + it retains the ypvs and you wouldn't know the difference if you missed the 350 impression on the pot, but there don't seem to be too many 350 heads/cylinders on the ground.

So the 250 option rears its logical head. I'd like to quiz the master strokers about options to trick up the rz250rr. Jon told me 250 pots make great paper weights, and 250's don't get tricked coz why would you bother? Saw that LB has one which is bound to be tricked, must get up and meet you sometime btw.
I read the thread on the 350 pipe idea., and the one on the ignition coil So what are the options re speeding up a 250 without F'ing it?
hybrid
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by hybrid »

You could still get a set of aftermarket cylinders. The bike will only go as fast as your right wrist allows!

I wouldn't bother doing much with the 250 barrels. To make it go, it will become less pleasurable (read ringing its neck more) to ride.

You're better off getting the capacity higher and not having it work so hard IMO.
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JonW
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by JonW »

Sort of feel I should stay out of this discussion as I have never ridden an RZ250, and never even thought to keep my F1 as a 250, just started sourcing 350 parts for it, also Ive been schooling Pete on 421s and filling his head with power, noise etc.

Some may remember that on my wesbite (in the 421 engine section) I also have worked out the cost of a 350 vs Athena conversion. The nub is that since you would need pipes, carbs and ignition for either its really just down to what you can get your top end for. But even if you can source a cheap 350 top end you will still need pistons and a rebore and probably PV work (they are almost always trashed or missing PVs), so Ive found the Athena stuff is the cheaper route and you get all new parts.

The other side of the coin is James (who you met at PITS I think Pete?) has tuned his 250 and rides the wheels off it (according to Arron for those that know him) so it is possible. He convinced me I was being harsh saying 250 parts were junk/paperweights/taking-up-space and it make me consider building a 250 as I dont have one ...but would I actually go through with it... I dunno... I cant really see it, but I have a rebored 250 top end ready to fit so its even 'free' to me, but.... I just dunno... A mega nice restored/built 250 is always the lowest of the low for any potential resale in Aus sadly and thet irks me a bit when there are other options I guess. Plus there is no rego benefit to 250 now :/

I agree with Jeff, Ive ridden plenty of big bikes and owned / driven fast cars all my life; You dont always need to use all the power all the time, but its comforting to know you have it there when you want it.

My final thought (I feel all 'Jerry Springer' LOL!) is this I reckon; If you want an easy/quick/cheap play with a bike then mess a bit with what you have. If you want a 'proper project hat will consume you a bit more', build a big motor, learn what works, research what things do, learn some more, talk to people youve never met, play with ignitions, squish, jetting and maybe even EGTs and Dynos and you can get deeply involved in engineering and mechancials which means you will understand what you have, and what youve done and what you want next, its the key to more fun with your bike I believe. Like many of us, I meet all manner of bike guys and Ive found that those that mess with their own bikes have a certain look in their eyes, but the ones who build stuff outside 'the box' have another different look again and gel very well with guys who've done the same as they 'get' eachothers work, no matter how different it might be. Like all things, its down to making choices about what you want your bike to be...
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by BRG1200 »

So, you pays yer money, you takes yer choice ;-)
Ex UK, now in Adelaide. LC250/350. DT175. Shed full of sh1t in the vague form of dismantled rusty RD’s and RZ’s.
petegailey
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by petegailey »

Thanks for your replys. What's the story of the Athena kit with the standard stroke, takes it up to about 380cc? Is there any merit in that? Or is it don't hold the horses and go all the way

And coz Ive never ridden a 421 how manageable are they? Are they reliable or are they temperamental race machines capable of going into orbit of blowing up into smitherines? And can you keep the front wheel on the road once you hit the power band? 80hp is a lot of horses for such a light bike. Just trying to get logical before I place the order.
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by BRG1200 »

Good questions, got to say 80 bhp sounds very attractive in an RZ package, but my questions would be the same, is it reliable, is it rideable.
Ex UK, now in Adelaide. LC250/350. DT175. Shed full of sh1t in the vague form of dismantled rusty RD’s and RZ’s.
hybrid
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by hybrid »

You don't have to go stroker if your original crank is fine. You could do that as a stage 2 when the crank needed looking at.
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by JonW »

BRG, there are quite a few 421s out there now (see the UK forums and PSB for Oilers threads) and many in build (mine, DOC03, LB, Aaron - his is 443cc). This isnt a new thing. Have a read of this, it may help:

http://2smoked.com/Yamaha_RD_%26_RZ_upg ... rimer.html

Pete, Athena on std stroke is 392. Justin (Twinrock) did this, standard Athena pistons from the kit as well - easy on the wallet option cos of that. Justin put his motor in a Mito, a short and wheelie prone bike as a 125... With the 392, it wheelied. A lot... Might have been the rider ;) :D Gozer (PSB forum) has that bike now I think.

Athena is the most reliable aftermarket upgrade for the RZ/banshee motor. Its well tested and many have built them. A grenade it is not as its not a race tuned item. Pistons last and they dont eat rings unlike others.

Well, you can use your old crank. It may well be fine. But whats it really like inside? its been running as a 250 for years... and if its been sat for any length of time the bearings wont be in their prime, sticking big pistons and a compression on that isnt ideal as if it lets go then youve a lot more work to do than just the cost of a crank and you will be unhappy for sure. just my 2c and yes back in the day I reused old pistons from other bikes and made my own gaskets from whatever was to hand, but these days...

To be honest as Im typing this I reckon youve answered your own question Pete, the fact you mention it twice here and weve spoken about it before means you already feel that it will be too much for you is my take. I'm starting to think you would be more comfortable with sourcing building a 350 top end on your existing crank. Just my 2c.
Last edited by JonW on Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hybrid
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by hybrid »

Leave the stock carbs on it... that'll keep it a bit quieter.

The thing he will benefit from is a bit more mid range grunt. The bottom end may be better off with not having to rev so hard to make power.

Depends on the rider.
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by JonW »

Oiler used the stock (350 I think) VM26 carbs on his 421 originally, not sure what's on his now, probably 34s. Wicked did a build on the RZRD forum where he did dynos of VM26s on a 421 and it made power in the 70s and said it rode well. Bigger carbs = more power and more fuel use of course.

I agree, the mid range is where more cc's help - 'no substitute for cubes' etc. Even without PVs the Athena cyls make reasonable low down power, they are not at all gutless like old non PVs 2T can be. Sure they might feel slower down low as they have more up top (in the same way the VW 1.8 GTi 16v engine felt compared to an 1.8 8v in the 80s - the 16v was more powerful everywhere but it didnt feel like it cos it had more up top and a step in power and that was addictive so everyone focused on that LOL - Drive the brace of Mk2 or MK3s Golf GTIs back to back, the valver is the one you'd buy but youd moan it was gutlees low down, even tho its not, anyway... before i start moaning about the excess weight of the MK3 VR6 version's motor's effect on handling lets get back to bikes...) and there is a step up when you hit the powerband but as the port tune is minimal (almost detuned as standard so you can make them what you want I guess - bear in mind these are banshee units designed to allow you to do what you need; so drag racing on sand or riding with your mates on mud, or just riding with the kids or perhaps dragging on the street for pinks in B'more can all be done with a differen port job) the bike isnt quite as scary as you might expect it to be at the transition, tho it will stretch your arms if you keep it pinned when you are on it. One thing that is interesting, and Im not sure why, is that the UK guys report that the Athena 421s are very fast to rev up in the rev range, one dyno reported it was the fastest revving up 2T they ever had, something in the make up (nikasil is the key perhaps) means they spool up very fast once you open the throttle wide.

Personally, I dont think the 421 is scary. Sure it has power and you can feel it wants to go, but the rider is the boss of it. Arron's 443 that is ported will be... I reckon that will be an interesting ride on standard wheels/tyres and brakes, but I know he knows what he's doing with his build, so I hope he lets me have a ride when he's done. Tho I dont think many 400+cc owners loan their bikes out, too much time/love/money invested etc. I know Im not keen to let someone else ride mine.

(for those interested, Arron's build thread: http://www.rzrd500.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7765 )

Agree, it all depends on the rider and what you want from a bike, I mean if we were all sensible we would ride CBR600s LOL Anyway, that's why I wrote it in the article on my site, hoping that people choose what they want based on what they need, rather than chasing a bhp or cc target.
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by JonW »

Pete, thinking about it you should also ask this question on Norbo's and the RDRZ forums, but do link this post in a way that people will go here and can see whats been said already perhaps? The reason I say this is that there are more people who have done this on there. If you post on PSB contact Gozer and Oiler directly perhaps for their input. Many of the people who post on the other sites dont go here as most are not local.

I reckon the answers you get on different forums will be different as well. A year or two back all the UK guys would have resoundingly said '350'. Now they are doing more long strokes and bigger cyls than they were and one guy is even turboing a 400! The USA would say 'go bigger' for sure. I think its cultural, the USA and Aus are more open spaces and traditionally we like boring and stroking motors, the brits, euros and canadians tend not to. I think also the Americans traditionally could afford to spend more money than the others on projects, as a lapsed brit I tend to think 'budget' more often than power LOL Make do n mend... haha. I'll get me coat ;) :D
petegailey
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by petegailey »

"Athena is the most reliable aftermarket upgrade for the RZ/banshee motor. Its well tested and many have built them. A grenade it is not as its not a race tuned item. Pistons last and they dont eat rings unlike others."

Thanks Jon, That's the sort of info I'm after.
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by JonW »

No worries Pete, remember this from my Big Bore Primer ( http://2smoked.com/Yamaha_RD_%26_RZ_upg ... rimer.html ) :

"Q. So all this said, you seem to favour the Athena kit?

A. Really the Athena 421 is what most people build as it works, but also it's well known on the forums as a good road solution, and its not *that* expensive. There are others other there and there is plenty more power to be had. From non-PV 68mm cylinders to all manner of mean monsters.... and since you can also stroke to +7 or +10 with case trenching you can build all sorts of sizes. E.g. a ported 443cc Athena should get you around 100bhp. But, bear in mind, Athena and 421 is the start point and banshee owners were there a long time back, that is a budget build for them, they go bigger and badder (600+) and chuck upwards of 10k in their motors for racing...
.... that's the kicker, you must know what you want before you start. I was one of the first to document a 421 Athena LC on the forums and others have done them since and have theirs on the road, I've dragged my heels with other projects but since we have so many documented ones done now its a well known setup and it works for a fun bike. "
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by 2TInstitute »

Athena kit is complete shit do not waste your money on it, in 421 it's even worse, the power is all or nothing, any set of more then 2 corners your 250 will be much faster. Spend the money you would have wasted on the Athena kit and spend it on decent suspension, tyres/wheels and brakes.
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Re: Tricking up an RZ250

Post by fred99999au »

Ever get to Melbourne Jon? My 250 is here, stock and you can go for a lap on it. It is on club reg, so we need to do the paperwork etc,but that is bugger all.

I also know for a fact that it can hold off a BMW RS1200 with a pillion passenger until about 140KM/h. Allegedly. Then the bimmer smells like burned clutch when it goes past. Allegedly.
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