2 Strokes Down Under

This comes from the discussion we started in Justin's thread where he was looking for a frame, which is best carried on here I guess, otherwise the poor bloke wont ever get a frame LOL

So I was thinking about the fact that a whole project makes a lot more sense than buying a single part and said:

If you buy a frame you pay $200ish and just get a frame... weve not seen one sell in Sydney recently, but im not expecting one here to sell for less than 250 now really as they are so very rare. Imagine that if you pay say $1k-1200 for a non runner project youve got to get 750-1k back, but by the time youve sold all the other parts off you'd be ahead and get the frame for free for sure; 250 top end is $200+, bottom end 150-200, tank is $silly money now and youve all the rest of a bike to nickle and dime; wheels (100) forks (150) brakes (100) and lots of other plastic parts (100), loom (50), switches (50), clocks (200-600 if they are good) and it goes on...and on...

I was thinking about this recently as Ive bought a few bits and also parts lots recently. And ive found that the more you pay, the more you get. if you just buy the one part you often seem to overspend. I also bought a 99% complete LC recently. I sold the rusty frame and engine the next day and then a few more parts over the next weeks and before I knew it I had almost broken even, and still have a pile of parts I needed for my rebuild and ive still some bits to sell.

The number of parts for sale on ebay must be testament to this phenomena now, weve about double the number listed newly each week over this time 18mths back, this especially true for the RZ market. Thats cos the parts are worth more than the bikes are. Projects still sell for sensible money, and guys buy them and then need parts, which they then seem to be ok to spend money on, from small to large parts Ive been asked for all sorts in the last year.

Of course, my problem is that when I get a project I see potential, not cold hard cash. So for me it's always hard to split em up, but not everyone is as sentimental as me LOL

Anyway, just my 2c but I know you like to get on and build, and Ive not seen an RZ frame in Sydney for 18mths now I would think. One may come up next week, but then again...

It does seem like these days the bigger RZ parts are quite thin on the ground. Things like decent bottom ends, 350 cyls, carbs, frames, clocks and tanks have become hens teeth. Even forks and brake calipers have started to become 'rare' items on ebay etc and bodywork and seats seems to be among the random items I get asked for most months.

I think either weve run out of wreckers with parts in or guys arent wrecking them anymore (probably doing it themselves) or that every man and his dog seems to be building one as a project LOL!

Back at the tail end of the 'noughties you could buy a non runner RZ for <$500. In fact I bought my F1 for $400 in 2009 when no one bid on it on ebay except me, when I drove to the blokes house to collect it I just followed for the 'for sale RZ' cardboard signs all around the neighbourhood, starting at the main road some 10km away! Obviously no one locally wanted it LOL

These days non runners or runners that need work seem to fetch the most money. Seems lots of us think we can turn a 2k runner into a nice bike with a weekend holiday in the man cave, sure we could have spent 4k on a nice one or 7 on a restored one, but we all think that we know better and that a few hundy and a weekend will have 'er perfect. Those whove done it know that the guys with $7k price tags are probably not breaking even unless they bought very well or did paint and engineering themselves, but we still get excited by a project... I know I do.

So whats do we think this landscape will look like in a years time I wonder? maybe the bubble will burst, unlikley as its a very small bubble really, or could be we seeing runner 250s for 3k and projects at 2k? hmm... that would make the restored bikes very good value at 7-10k I guess. who knows... perhaps we will be breaking them up for good tanks and clocks LOL!

Anyway, let me know what you think.

I don't fully understand The Market and I don't like making predictions at the best of times but one thing I can confirm is the market for anything LC is strong and you can sell the most unusual LC items, in nearly any condition and for what seems surprising money.

Literally I've been at the recycle bin with the thought 'ah, this might be useful to someone, I'll see what happens if I put it on Ebay'.

I've had items like the rubber tank pad and engine mounts, things that you would think would never get lost, fall off or replaced, sell for $10-20 with competing bids. I think we have 40-50 year olds with the LC from there youth tucked away with the intention 'I'll put that back on the road one day'. The LC gets shunted from move to move, get partially pulled apart for whatever reason, and parts get lost.

And there are probably others in the market place for other reasons like 'performance with easy mods', popularity of resto, retirement projects etc etc. All in all LC's, RD's, RZ's, YD's YR's DS's and TZ et al, and indeed 70's -80's bikes, are collectable - and the market is strong.

As for setting prices, thank God for EvilPay .

To be honest I have been one of those guys buying that mundane stuff, and it also surprised me how many others were bidding against me. For me its cos i'm building from bits and am missing many of the joining parts, but I think youre right that others are missing things as theyve lost them, also anything rubber is eaten alive by the UV here of course.

I think Ebay has been a blessing and also a curse for us. Years ago you had a bunch of stuff and gave it to your mates as there wasnt much of a market. you could advertise in the papers or mags, but it was hassle. that meant you were stuck with what was in your circle of friends or at the dealer. These days you can get almost anything, from anywhere on the globe, but that means the prices have gone up too as youre not the only one who can access the part.

Back in the early 90s in Portsmouth UK you could find lots of nos Yam bits in Rafferty Newman in Southsea. They sold off all mitsui yams slow selling lines at discount prices, they also did the same for the other importers of the big jap brands. It seems like a long time ago but imagine an aladins cave of brand new bikes (a line of brand new F2s I remember vividly... lurvely!) then above hundreds of tanks and bodywork dangling from the ceiling. Piles of frames, boxes of bits and engines stacked up, whole bikes to part out then shelves with OEM manuals, OEM parts books and of course parts galore, all new and boxed or in packets. But it was a slow sell, you could drop in year on year and the same tank would still be hanging there waiting for you to save up, mostly as few of us had parts fiches/books or any idea what the parts went with and the shop didnt seem worried about selling it. I bought all sorts in there over the years, even unused race parts like a high compression cylinder head for a honda single for a bargain £7.99! No one wanted it or recognised the part number... if you could price it at a dealer it would have been hundreds. happy days. I totally loved that shop and went there most weekends as I lived in Havant. Sadly it moved a few times (the fantastic old building became a block of new flats), it got smaller when I guess the tie up with the imports ended, went back to selling scoots and parts to mods and now seems to have only its farm equip biz left. Sad really. I couldnt find a pic of the old huge shop sadly, it was quite something tho, but would have been sad to see all those good bits dangling there and wishing you had a time machine LOL!

Anyway... Point is, these days that haul would be on ebay and gone in 7-10 days, and for more money than the sticker on it.... but a lot of builders and restorers would be very happy indeed. The shop might have done better of course and still been in business. hmm...

Interestingly I had a chat with the guys at Brysons when they closed, they were a wrecker here in Sydney. They claimed ebay had killed their business. I heard what he said as while they had access to more buyers, we were now more picky and as supply went up the prices came down as it was no longer a choice of what the local guys had or be damned. Brysons maintained two things:
1, there was no money in photographing, writing an ad and paying ebay then sending stuff about the world.
2, any fool could buy an old bike, usually cherry picking the good ones and paying a bit more than a breaker would, then strip and sell it on ebay without having to pay business tax or worry about oils and fuels as per the rules and no building or staff to cope with and no need to store parts that dont sell, just bin em.

While I sort of agreed with what he said, mostly as he was of course also contradicting himself along the way as he had missed the point that if you cant beat em you need to join em... which seems to be a particular thing for businesses in this country, who tend to moan about customers being more switched on to getting ripped off here and so buying elsewhere, that moaning takes up all their headspace instead of working out a way to lure them back with other factors and a price cut. Ive said before about the Renthal importer making out like it was me personally who was stopping his kids expensive education just cos I was asking why a sprocket cost $90 when it could be landed from the uk for $50. The swearing and the abuse was unreal, the importers had ripped us off for years and now it was our fault, mental. Of course the government is now involved in that and rather than lower the prices, theyve sent the Aussie tax man around the world and agreed with bigger businesses to charge us imports at source on overseas purchases to level the playing field up a bit. Thats actually true, in case you didnt know.... Yeah, mental... again.

Anyway, Brysons... gone now. Couldnt make being a breaker work, yet plenty of others now sell on ebay and make it work for them, more staff costs, cheaper parts too, but more volume i suspect. Not that many of the wreckers had much for our old bikes of course, tho brysons did and Pat got most of the Yam stuff when the closed, good lad! Amusingly back in 2006 I rang one breaker in Sydney for XL500R parts, he put me onto his old boss who had all the old parts. he must have been off his meds as he spent a whole 5mins shouting ans swearing at me that all XL500s were shit and I was an idiot for messing about with them. Er, thanks... Im guessing no parts then.... He now imports all manner of old bikes and sells them, and yes you know who im talking about. Ive never bothered to call him again of course, but he seems to make the net work for him with Fb and ebay etc.

Ok, what am I saying... well I think what im saying, I am rambling a bit LOL... is that we can expect to see even mundane parts for RZs go up in price as more and more guys try to gather a complete set. I know the Lc is more 'special' in the hearts of many bikers compared to the RZ, but its the next in line as weve seen in the uk market. Some of those parts buyers are one hit wonders who have the one bike in the shed as Ozzy says above, others are restoring the bikes from their youth as a hobby. Prices of parts seems to be rising, and while Justin said he felt RZ parts were anchors stuck firmly in his shed, I think that will be less and less true as time goes on as the prices rise and availability increases, yes increases as more parts hit ebay each week, no parts means no restoration and guys selling their parts means restorers can build which raises prices etc. I say that as this also translates to more and more restored or rebuilt bikes being out there, which in turn means more guys who want one, and price rise of the finished ones means its worth restoring them, raising prices again.

Do I think its a good thing? Kinda... people always moan when stuff goes up in price, but the reality is that it does mean its worth the invested coin to bring a bike back from the dead. Sure, it means many won't have the entry fee anymore, but there is always a project if you want one, you just have to find it or look at another model. Take RZ500s, 2 years back 7-10k got you a nice one, now its 12-15. That does mean you can still buy a project and make it work in the budget if you want to do your own work. Back when I bought my $400 F1 it was a 2500 bike in good nick and no one seemed to want them. I spent over double that in bits and work and its not even painted yet. Madness at the time. today its worth 7-10k perhaps, but does that change my view on it? nah... its still sat in the corner needing paint LOL I just dont have the money to paint it right now. Shame really with the new historic rules i would actually use it if i did that :/ maybe thats what i should do in 2016... but, its not like the value means anything really as im not selling it of course, I bloody love that bike

Its called externalising - blaming (and believing) everything other than yourself is to blame for your demise, faults or failings.

Bryson's were wrong; Ebay wasn't the cause it was an opportunity.

What's the bet that the real reason was increasing rent - if you went back today there is probably four new factory units on the same block getting twice the rental for the owner. That is 4 x 2 times the rental for 8 times the rental total. Hey, that's dirty crass capitalism - and I ain't gonna tell you have much I made out of property this year (after 4 years of virtually no increase) - freaking insane, obscene, me sitting on my arse doing nuttin - but I'll run with it anyway.

I think the post office makes more money than I do out of my Ebay sales so yes, the reward for effort margins for Bryson's would have been small but that why smart operators use NewStart, or similar, to get a govt subsidy to pay a junior $5 an hour to do it while the mechanic is on the tools getting $60ph.

Brysons probably should have looked at what Metro's were doing - modern stuff and if it doesn't sell bin it. But I'm sure metro also moved some of their 'good' old stock to a country property for storage rather than pay city rents. A nice tax dodge - country holiday property with 10 shipping containers of old wrecker stock with the cost of the property attributed to the business for tax purposes. I suss that exactly what some of the Ebay sellers have done.

But some of the Ebay sellers are wreckers and they do have their cost which gives me an advantage selling against them. But even so some of their prices are insane. Has Liverpool Wreckers sold those LC instruments yet. It must be three years they have been advertised for $350. I think I've sold three similar sets for $150-200 in the same time - and it ain't all because I don't pay GST etc etc etc.

You could well be right that rent killed Brysons, their warehouse was in an area full of industrial property, all of which would be worth a small fortune now.

The PO (whos rates have gone up to ludicrous levels this year) also make more than me or ebay does from my sales. Today I sold a $17.95 carb kit. The post is $27.20. Ebay take 10% of all that money, and paypal take another 4%. I will lose on the postage as its to the uk and needs to be tracked so will cost all of the 27ish bucks. I may clear about $14 if Im lucky.

Ok that sounds like sour grapes, yet its not. This was an old (are rare) carb kit for an MT250, someone could use it and I dont need it. I didnt want to throw it away and you cant give stuff away for free to random people on the other side of the world you never knew existed, even charities dont do that.

So, while $14 isnt much for me to reinvest in LC or RZ parts, it does help of course...

I sold a set of LC clocks on ebay to a fella in the UK last month, I priced them between the sets you mention. They sold very quickly, the post was almost $90 to express ship those. :/

What is interesting is that this year I also became a breaker. I finally had to admit defeat with a bike and strip it for parts. I hate doing that, but it was the right decision and meant that a bunch of guys have now found the parts they needed from the deal, myself included. I dont intend to make a habit of it, but it worked out well and I met some nice folks in the process.

Would I like shipping containers full of bikes/parts, probably not... I just know that I'd want to build too many projects from them LOL

Between eBay, PayPal and Aussie Post they manage to suck vast amounts of fees and costs for everything that sells there. I'm always flabbergasted at eBay monthly invoices when they arrive in my inbox.

Australia Post has to be one of the most expensive delivery systems anywhere now. They've bitched and whinged about falling profits from the letter delivery business, but haven't bothered to pipe up and mention that their parcel delivery business must be 10 times the size that it was 10 years ago. I've used Fastways Couriers for my business for over 10 years and for most items I sell, it's cheaper for me to send that way.

For all its faults, eBay has absolutely changed the way people buy/shop/acquire everything. And it's brilliant! I think I started in 2003 and living in the bush, it provides access to all manner of things that your just not going to find in your average country town. When you balance the cost of postage against the cost of driving to town or even to the city, it's a no brainer.

As for finding old motorcycle parts.... When I first started working on my Beeza (1993) I remember going through the BSA parts list published monthly on full page adverts in Classic Bike by C&D Autos in Birmingham, selecting out my list of bits, sending a snail mail letter to the UK, getting a response back by snail mail with the quote and postage costs, getting an International money order from the bank, sending the cheque off to the UK, and then waiting patiently for your bits to turn up..... It took months. I imported bits form UK, US, NZ and from all over oz as well. eBay changed the world.

Btw, I noticed an RZ frame turn up in a saved eBay search today. Listing had ended before I clicked on it!

Great food for thought boys. I've got 4 rz's, first one bought in 2010. most i've payed was $2500 for the first one it came from gumtree. payed a removalist $400 to bring in to my door from melbourne. Second rz was on ebay, 14 bids one minute to go it was at $1500 i placed a bid of $1800 and won the bike for $1625. I drove 470k's to bathurst to pick up the bike, The owner said i don't have the tank key, inspecting the tank i realised it was rotten and non salvagable. he took the price down to $1500. i found a tank through steve at the 2 stroke shop for $200 and payed another $450 to paint it. everything else on that bike was ok and i ran it as is for a few tousand k's before pulling the engine to run in a fresh one. Rz number 3 was an 88 250 that had been set up for the track, reading through the add i spotted, new crank, r6 shock, new bearings in all the bike, new brakes braided lines etc etc. we know the price of these mods and upkeep, the casual i want to own a 2 stroke newbie just looks at the paint job and cool factor. $2200 was the starting bid, $3000 buy now price. I liked the bike i sat infront of the computer sweating with 5 minutes to go no bids 35 watching. I didn't bid although i wanted to bid to $2400 in the last minute. 10 minutes after the listing ended i emailed the guy asking to come and inspect the bike. 2 days later it was mine for $2g. came with a box of spares and a folder with $1700 of reciepts for some of the parts purchased when it was rebuilt. the bikes a gem and when i previewed it here jon w's first comment was it was worth 3-4g in sydney. rz number 4 was a rusted 250 with a 350 top end and 350 pipes. condition hard to gauge in 5 minutes but worth the $500 i paid for it. Although once torn down i've found a cracked lower crankcase, bent transmision shaft, cocaine filled carbs and a frame rusted beyond further use. still got my $500 out of the usable 350 barrells, f2 350 pipes, and other spares to keep my other 3 going. I think a nut and bolt rebuilt rz is worth everthing of $6g because all you get for a $3g is the rz with the standard advertised New top end and majour service done bike that some punters get into a bidding frenze over, all the while the cranks just hanging in, tyres 9 years old, bearings are oem 30 years old, forks pitted calipers never serviced and nowhere near road worthy. For me i feel i've found some good bikes and deals because i'm allways looking plus i don't buy to make a profit on the flip side, rather i buy to own, restore and share these classic bikes.

I think there is another factor to keep in mind with regard to restos - which end of the sandpit you're playing in.
If you can't access the $5k to $7k "decent examples", you by necessity trawl the lower end. That $1,500 semi basket case may represent the only way in. If Inadded up the collection in my garage it ranges from a $300 barn find to an $1800 kit of parts. All together - if I'd had all the money at the same time - which I didn't - they'd represent one "decent" LC (at last years prices!)
What was the old expression about "residual value"? A thing never drops below a certain point, although that point may vary over time.

Some prices asked are 'unreal' e.g.

http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/m.html?_odkw ... 0&_sacat=0

Of course what you ask and what you get are two different things. But how about a second hand ignition for $180 plus postage . Or would you rather a new one for $65 out of Singapore .

It would be worth striping your RZ and selling it part by part if these prices came true .

Darwin, I agree, not all of us have the funds to buy the far end, but we can drip feed restos

OzLC, I always tell people to research before they buy, not after... that never ends well....

I found a major prob with wreckers is that they were not very flexible on price..or realistic in current market..they were once the gate keepers of everything..shipping something interstate seemed crazy so u were at their mercy..they could ask what they wanted..we only have one wrecker left in newcastle a dirt bike wrecker..vry nice pple..but god danm they want soo much money..they have held onto the inventory for soo long its like they cant go back on their word..and they wont sell complete items..ie..how much for a bottom end...sorry we wont sell u a bottom end ..but will sell cases , gear box, crank all individually at crazy money..they must be just holding on..also I dont think wreckers get the cheap stock in anymore..pple try their luck on line befor last resort of wrecker..wreckers should be out their buying cheap stuff..from gumtree..then splitting and advertising on line..its the new way..the only way really..

On another note it is only really recently that rz, rd parts have dried up..it was only about 5 yrs ago I bought out a local wrecker that went broke I took all the 2 stroke road stuff most yam..there was soo much..and I sold it but it took a while and at such cheap prices..can u beleive that I left an almost complete rz350 behind..It was very buried under bikes and a dodgy roof..the. cylinders were seized on I couldent remove them on the spot so I left it..I already had soo much stuff..I was selling rz and lc bottoms ends for like $150 stock pipes I gave away..frames..and wheels went to scrap..I was sick of lookin at them..I had a fully regoed rz350 the time I could not sell..I think I moved it on for $1500..11 months rego!! It was almost over night that pple went hang on..cant seem to find that part I need anymore..used to be thick on the ground..but most got simply thrown out because know one wanted them..and baby boomer enthusiasts were still a lil while off..so then more pple are more likely to hang on to what they have..and ask good money for it when they decide to sell.. and rightly so..