2 Strokes Down Under

There is a halfway house with a good map and all new electronics that Zeel do, but you cant alter it.... you could go that way for less money, and its a one shot deal.... personally I have 3 Zeels... (much zeel?! LOL) and I like the fact you can change things around to suit you and your bike, like has been said above, money well spent.

2TInstitute wrote:How can help you if your not prepared to listen and get the shits when you don't get the answers you wanted to hear ?

Eh?

Show me where in the above I have shown anger, angst or I haven't listened.

I think you'll find the thread clearly show the boot being on the other foot. How's this for a snide, unhelpful, not listening, not understanding remark; "The whole idea of the programmable ignition is you tailor it to your engine."

Of course I understood it was a programmable ignition but I'm not buying a programmable ignition for the sake of playing with it. I'm looking to buy to get a variable ignition; set, forget and get tangible benefits for street use.

That fact that you can't pick or understand the difference is not my fault.

And after posting here, reading Zeeltronics site, searching Google and Utube I still haven't got a clear idea how the setting are arrived at, how to optimise the settings (other than suck it and see tuning). what the range of a settings are or exactly how the settings are installed.

From my own understanding I have some idea of what the benefits could be but other than reassurances I've found nothing empirical.

The Zeeltronic site offers this blog; http://tzrchronicles.blogspot.com.au/

"I will say that I have been a little disappointed with this project for a specific reason." not exactly encouraging for the nearest thing I have for official results and empirical evidence.

Even the described methodology of tuning ( suck it and see tuning on a dyno) doesn't fill me with confidence or anticipation.

And the conclusion "I netted a gain from 6700 all the way to 11,000 - averaging something like 2.5 HP. A nice day's work considering all I did was tell electrons to do different things."

A 5% gain (barely noticeable anywhere other than a track) for $250-300 and a day on a dyno ($$$$$). Yes I know it is a modded TZR and there will be difference but without better empirical evidence at this stage it is not what I consider Good Value.

So you've got two Aussie guys here with real world experience with these things, and you'd rather read a website from who knows where written by who knows.

Twice (here's the third) I have stated that the LC has STATIC IGNITION TIMING. The CDI does not change the timing AT ALL from your base timing. That is why the LC only needs the VCDI-04 and not the zeeltronic CDI (static timing) itself.

Again, with the TZR you're comparing it to results from a bike that has a variable ignition curve from factory. You're not going to get the same gains from a bike that already has a variable curve, because unless you have changed a lot, the factory probably has it fairly good already.
Chalk and cheese mate - and you wonder why people get frustrated trying to help you.

Here's the easy answer for you if that's what you want. Don't do it. They don't work.

Did someone put something in the water around here .

hybrid wrote:So you've got two Aussie guys here with real world experience with these things, and you'd rather read a website from who knows where written by who knows.

My conclusions are not based on one web site or one remark but "And after posting here, reading Zeeltronics site, searching Google and Utube I still haven't got a clear idea how the setting are arrived at, how to optimise the settings (other than suck it and see tuning). what the range of a settings are or exactly how the settings are installed."

hybrid wrote:Twice (here's the third) I have stated that the LC has STATIC IGNITION TIMING. The CDI does not change the timing AT ALL from your base timing. That is why the LC only needs the VCDI-04 and not the zeeltronic CDI (static timing) itself.

And I've said "From my own understanding I have some idea of what the benefits could be but other than reassurances I've found nothing empirical.And "Of course I understood it was a programmable ignition but I'm not buying a programmable ignition for the sake of playing with it. I'm looking to buy to get a variable ignition; set, forget and get tangible benefits for street use."

......so it is hardly necessary to explain things a third time.

hybrid wrote:Again, with the TZR you're comparing it to results from a bike that has a variable ignition curve from factory. You're not going to get the same gains from a bike that already has a variable curve, because unless you have changed a lot, the factory probably has it fairly good already.

I acknowledge there would be differences but concluded "but without better empirical evidence at this stage it is not what I consider Good Value."

hybrid wrote:Chalk and cheese mate -.........

If it a chalk and cheese difference I would expect to see something approximating empirical evidence. At this stage I haven't seen any.

hybrid wrote:.........and you wonder why people get frustrated trying to help you.

Yes I do wonder why people can't read straight and why they want to jump down my throat.

hybrid wrote: Here's the easy answer for you if that's what you want. Don't do it. They don't work.

I wasn't look for an easy answer. I was looking for better understanding and assessing the potential value as a mod for a street LC. My knowledge of the Zeeltronic hasn't advanced and I'm still at the 'trust me, suck it and see' stage.

My water is fine, but I think somebody might have put some date rape drugs in yours, as your brain is clearly not functioning properly.

If you can't work out why variable timing is a benefit over static timing on an engine that will rev anywhere from 1000rpm-10000rpm, then maybe you should just leave the bike in the shed.

As for a starting curve, the RZ engine is similar in bore/stroke, so you could start with a stock RZ curve. Still a benefit over standard LC.

Good luck with your research.

There are two schools of thought on programmable ignitions those who swear by them and fit them to everything regardless and those that would never fit them to anything, there is no in between and there are arguments like this going on on every forum out there. I personally would never bother unless I couldn't find the required system.

I get the feeling Ozzie just wants to know what are the definitive benefits of fitting a programable ignition to his LC, that way he can figure out whether it is worth his time and money. Obviously variable will be better than static, but not everyone has the time/skill/ or knowledge to fuck around with and set up a programable ignition. I'll be looking at one myself soon, but as somebody mentioned previously, it'll start off on a 31k curve cos I ain't got any of the previously mentioned qualities.

hybrid wrote:My water is fine, but I think somebody might have put some date rape drugs in yours, as your brain is clearly not functioning properly.

Oh Dear, starting a post with an insult: never a Good Look when trying to claim the Intellectual High Ground. And such a lame juvenile insult at that, oh dear!!!

hybrid wrote:If you can't work out why variable timing is a benefit over static timing on an engine that will rev anywhere from 1000rpm-10000rpm, then maybe you should just leave the bike in the shed.

And another, oh dear.

If you can read straight you’ll see several times I’ve said I understand the potential benefits but couldn’t find empirical evidence to assess for value for money, time and effort, nor could I find information on exactly the ‘suck it and see’ tuning method was done.

hybrid wrote:As for a starting curve, the RZ engine is similar in bore/stroke, so you could start with a stock RZ curve. Still a benefit over standard LC.

The quoted blog site suggests the same with the TZR. But it is still the ‘suck it and see’ method. If I were going to choose a starting point it would be the standard LC. The RZ has a power valve and I would expect timing the spark and the power valve to optimize together would have a major benefit. I would expect the LC to have different optimum ignition timing at the same revs. But I don’t know for sure and my research is not throwing any light on the subject.

EPApolice wrote:There are two schools of thought on programmable ignitions those who swear by them and fit them to everything regardless and those that would never fit them to anything, there is no in between and there are arguments like this going on on every forum out there. I personally would never bother unless I couldn't find the required system.

Thanks for the comments EP. I’m unaware of threads on other forums and the division of opinion. It surprises me, I would have thought that coming up with empirical Hard Numbers would not be that hard.

My thoughts at the moment is that it probably is a benefit but unless specifically tuned to the mods/other settings of the bike and tuned to the intended use of the bike, the benefits are minimal. And my thinking is to optimize the ignition is expensive in time, money and effort.

It pains me that I have not managed to convince you of my superior intellect. Nor convince you to spend a huge amount of money on a snake oil ignition product.

OzzyElsie wrote: My thoughts at the moment is that it probably is a benefit but unless specifically tuned to the mods/other settings of the bike and tuned to the intended use of the bike, the benefits are minimal.

For the money, it would be a worthwhile improvement to midrange for a road bike RD350LC.
Whatever your current state of tune, I wouldn't do it before reducing the head squish.
When you reduce the squish you will retard the ignition anyway and so why not fit an ignition with a curve at that time.
If the exhaust port has been raised by 1.5mm to give more top end, then set the ignition so that at revs of max torque it is at 1.8mm BTDC, if is is stock then set it to 1.7mm BTDC.

OzzyElsie wrote: And my thinking is to optimize the ignition is expensive in time, money and effort.

It doesn't have to be. I don't have time these days to stuff around.
When I fitted the ignition to my TZ350 I just bought what others had that worked and then set it to the recommended settings. It is a big improvement to midrange and for now I will leave it like that.

mboddy wrote: For the money, it would be a worthwhile improvement to midrange for a road bike RD350LC.
Whatever your current state of tune, I wouldn't do it before reducing the head squish.

Thanks for your advice, your conclusion is pretty much the conclusion I've come to. I rebuilt the engine about 8 years ago. I can't quite remember some of the detail so I was going to go back over it and check the squish etc.

When I get that right and I check a few other things I might go for the Zeeltronic. But then I might justify a suspension upgrade first.

Rider training is the best bang for buck... makes you faster and smoother, and also safer, on every bike you ride, not just this one... but maybe that doesnt answer any of the questions posed

OzzyElsie wrote:

2TInstitute wrote:How can help you if your not prepared to listen and get the shits when you don't get the answers you wanted to hear ?

Eh?

Show me where in the above I have shown anger, angst or I haven't listened.

I think you'll find the thread clearly show the boot being on the other foot. How's this for a snide, unhelpful, not listening, not understanding remark; "The whole idea of the programmable ignition is you tailor it to your engine."

Of course I understood it was a programmable ignition but I'm not buying a programmable ignition for the sake of playing with it. I'm looking to buy to get a variable ignition; set, forget and get tangible benefits for street use.

That fact that you can't pick or understand the difference is not my fault.

And after posting here, reading Zeeltronics site, searching Google and Utube I still haven't got a clear idea how the setting are arrived at, how to optimise the settings (other than suck it and see tuning). what the range of a settings are or exactly how the settings are installed.

From my own understanding I have some idea of what the benefits could be but other than reassurances I've found nothing empirical.

The Zeeltronic site offers this blog; http://tzrchronicles.blogspot.com.au/

"I will say that I have been a little disappointed with this project for a specific reason." not exactly encouraging for the nearest thing I have for official results and empirical evidence.

Even the described methodology of tuning ( suck it and see tuning on a dyno) doesn't fill me with confidence or anticipation.

And the conclusion "I netted a gain from 6700 all the way to 11,000 - averaging something like 2.5 HP. A nice day's work considering all I did was tell electrons to do different things."

A 5% gain (barely noticeable anywhere other than a track) for $250-300 and a day on a dyno ($$$$$). Yes I know it is a modded TZR and there will be difference but without better empirical evidence at this stage it is not what I consider Good Value.

You have not been interested in anything other thanignorance and your jaundiced view from the outset. So what exactly do you consider "good value"? I'll await the thread on how far $300 went at the suspension shop

2TInstitute wrote: You have not been interested in anything other thanignorance and your jaundiced view from the outset.

Eh!

Take another look over the thread and tell me who has casted insults and who has asked for some empirical evidence.

Instead of having your head up your arse searching for insults, get some fresh air so your logical brain might function and you would realise that $300 misspent on a ignition is not the same as $1000 well spent on the suspension. The $300 is bad value, the $1000 is good value.

And lacking evidence to the contrary that is my judgment.